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Topic Title: fresh PhD
Created On Tue Jan 13, 09 12:09 PM

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mitee
Junior Member

Posts: 8
Joined: Apr 2008

Tue Jan 13, 09 12:09 PM

Hi all,

I'm a fresh phd in pure math from one of the top 10 schools finihsing this May. Since the last october, I have applied to many positions through all possible routes, such as friends working in the area, head hunters and firm's online application, but I even don't get any interview chances. Is it just due to terrible situation now or do I have to consider myself a weak applicant? And any comment to get a job? Thanks in advance.

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twofish
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Posts: 4619
Joined: Feb 2005

Tue Jan 13, 09 01:11 PM

It's a terrible, terrible job market right now. You could show up to some firms with a Fields medal, and a Nobel prize in Physics and Economics, and they still wouldn't be able to hire you. This means that you have to put some extra effort to get anywhere. Even in good times, you have to go through dozens and dozens of leads to get anywhere. Right now, I'd hedge your bets and look for different jobs in different fields.

The good news is:

1) it may have nothing to do with your abilities. If a firm has no jobs, then they have no jobs, and it doesn't matter how good your are, and

2) things can change very, very quickly in either direction. A year ago, people were still hiring. Last August, things were starting to look a little bad, but there were still jobs. Then in September, the bottom totally fell out, and people are still largely in survival mode. The good news is that for someone that doesn't have a job, it can't get any worse in finance, and it can only get better, and things move quickly enough so that things can get better very quickly.

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wjs
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Posts: 18
Joined: Apr 2008

Thu Jan 15, 09 05:43 PM

Twofish,

do you mean it is better to sit down and wait? How quickly do you think the finance job market can recover?

Thanks in advance.

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twofish
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Posts: 4619
Joined: Feb 2005

Fri Jan 16, 09 07:03 AM

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Originally posted by: wjsdo you mean it is better to sit down and wait?

It's a horrible idea to wait and do nothing. What I was suggesting was that in parallel with your job search in finance, you do your job search in something else. In essence, my advice is not to wait for finance.

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How quickly do you think the finance job market can recover?

No one has any clue. It could be three months. It could be thirty years. The one thing that is certain is that things in 2010 will be very different than they were in 2007. They could be very different in a good way. They could be very different in a bad way. No one really knows.

Instead of trying to guess something that no one knows, you just have to behave in a way that gets you somewhere reasonable no matter what happens.

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StatGuy
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Posts: 605
Joined: Nov 2007

Fri Jan 16, 09 12:54 PM

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What I was suggesting was that in parallel with your job search in finance, you do your job search in something else. In essence, my advice is not to wait for finance.

Problem is that other sectors are feeling the pinch as well, so if after a year you are still looking you may want to consider a post-doc or some other academic role. This will give you some income and help explain the gap in your CV.

SG

Edited: Fri Jan 16, 09 at 12:55 PM by StatGuy

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CrashedMint
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Posts: 617
Joined: Jan 2008

Fri Jan 16, 09 06:23 PM

Maybe you should consider an internship? will not pay as much but they should have headcount for this. and you should stay ENROLLED at your school or you dont get an internship.

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KackToodles
Senior Member

Posts: 3966
Joined: Aug 2005

Sat Jan 17, 09 08:17 AM

you need to stay enrolling in school so you have medical coverage. do not graduate until you have a job and health insurance. don't let them graduate you into the streets!

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RiskCapital
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Posts: 229
Joined: Nov 2005

Sat Jan 17, 09 09:46 AM

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you need to stay enrolling in school so you have medical coverage. do not graduate until you have a job and health insurance. don't let them graduate you into the streets!

Neat Idea ! KackToodles

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twofish
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Posts: 4619
Joined: Feb 2005

Sun Jan 18, 09 09:25 AM

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Originally posted by: StatGuyProblem is that other sectors are feeling the pinch as well, so if after a year you are still looking you may want to consider a post-doc or some other academic role. This will give you some income and help explain the gap in your CV.

You should consider a post-doc and some other academic role *NOW*. Do not be picky about what you do, especially in a bad economic climate. Apply for everything you can think of, finance, non-finance, academia, etc. etc. In almost all cases, you will end up having the door closed in your face, which is why you need to knock on as many doors as you can. It doesn't matter if a 1000 people say no, as long as one person say yes, and you have to keep knocking on doors until you get to someone that has cash to give you.

The psychological pressure can be huge. There are a lot of people in Ph.D. programs who have never had the experience of being rejected, because since kindergarten their history has been "pass the test" go to the next level, and the system they have been in has been somewhat rational in which if you don't make it to the next level, it's because of something "bad" you did. Once you got your Ph.D., you are no longer in the world (even if you stay in academia), and it is a huge transition to make to realize, that you are going to fail and be rejected, even if you are very, very good. In a situation in which you have to keep knocking on doors and getting rejected time and time again is new, and something that most people have to deal with is the (justified) fear of rejection, humiliation, and failure.

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twofish
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Sun Jan 18, 09 09:42 AM

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Originally posted by: CrashedMintwill not pay as much but they should have headcount for this.

In a lot of firms, they don't. Right now, the situation in a lot of firms is "do not even think of hiring anyone."

This situation may change quickly or it may not. I wouldn't be surprised if in two weeks, the word from on high is "start hiring." Having worked in the oil industry, I also wouldn't be surprised if the situation *never* improves. There was a massive burst of hiring in the 1980's oil boom and no major hiring until the early-2000's when people started retiring. (Working with a lot of programmers in their 50's and 60's was a very good experience, since I don't have this fear of growing old that a lot of people in younger industries have, since I've seen something people in their 60's doing cool things that I want to do when I'm 60.)

Be ready, be flexible, so that you are ready if there is a massive burst of hiring in two months or if Wall Street ends up a dying industry. One thing that this means is that it helps if you don't have too fixed an idea of what you want to do. If you say 'I want to be a quant" then you run into the problem in that there may be no jobs whatever this quant thing is. On the other hand, if you say "I want to do cool things with math and computers" your options vastly increase.

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StatGuy
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Posts: 605
Joined: Nov 2007

Sun Jan 18, 09 10:45 AM

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You should consider a post-doc and some other academic role *NOW*. Do not be picky about what you do, especially in a bad economic climate. Apply for everything you can think of, finance, non-finance, academia, etc. etc

If you apply for everything you are likely to end up in a role that you were not quite suited for. Sure it will give you some income, but if you can afford it you could be better off waiting (up to 1 year) for a more suitable position. If you end up in academia as a 2nd option it is likely you will not be in the right frame of mind to succeed there, and worse could end up with a poor reference.

SG

Edited: Sun Jan 18, 09 at 10:47 AM by StatGuy

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CrashedMint
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Posts: 617
Joined: Jan 2008

Sun Jan 18, 09 01:42 PM

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Originally posted by: twofish
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Originally posted by: CrashedMintwill not pay as much but they should have headcount for this.

In a lot of firms, they don't.

Really? Me and a good friend were both hired around Christmas. So, from my personal experience it's not as dire as everybody says it is. Also intern are paid not so much, so I would assume it's possible to get in, especially if you have a math PhD.

edit: that sounded quite cocky, but i mean it in a positive way: even though the situation *does* suck it's possible to find work. And if you have a PhD you should be more qualified than for example me, cause I don't have mine (yet). So, just don't give up. People like positive people. So be positive, apply to a lot of firms and something will work out. Oh, and from school you should know some people, maybe one of them can help you pass your cv and stuff to HR? Online application forms are the devil. But I'm sure you know that.

Edited: Sun Jan 18, 09 at 01:46 PM by CrashedMint

Posts: 66
Joined: Mar 2008

Sun Jan 18, 09 04:29 PM

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Originally posted by: StatGuy

... If you end up in academia as a 2nd option it is likely you will not be in the right frame of mind to succeed there, and worse could end up with a poor reference.

SG

The poor reference is only a problem if he wants to remain in academia (or go back to school, to get an MFE for example). Right?
My question is whether these poor academic references matter if he goes to industry? Sorry if this is an ignorant question, but I have little industry experience.

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StatGuy
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Posts: 605
Joined: Nov 2007

Sun Jan 18, 09 05:56 PM

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The poor reference is only a problem if he wants to remain in academia (or go back to school, to get an MFE for example). Right? My question is whether these poor academic references matter if he goes to industry? Sorry if this is an ignorant question, but I have little industry experience.

Well it is better to leave academia on a good note and keep the door open just in case you may return later in your career as some top professionals do in this area. But if you are certain you will never return, then yes you are right it will not matter much until you need a reference from your last employer. I guess if you have worked part-time in other jobs as well you can give other references, but if all you have is an academic reference then you have to be careful and not leave on a bad note for the reference sake. This is why it is cruital that you aim for the right jobs in the 1st place and give it a fair amount of time before taking the 2nd option - I would say (up to 1 year) if you have the finance.

SG

Edited: Sun Jan 18, 09 at 05:56 PM by StatGuy

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twofish
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Posts: 4619
Joined: Feb 2005

Sun Jan 18, 09 06:38 PM

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Originally posted by: StatGuyIf you apply for everything you are likely to end up in a role that you were not quite suited for.

So what? You can't always get what you want, but if you try some times, you get what you need. If you find out that "X looked good, but that turned out to be a mistake", congratulations, it's part of your education. It also works the other way, "X looked awful, and I wasn't sure about getting the job, but that was a great decision." Usually its a mix.

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if you can afford it you could be better off waiting (up to 1 year) for a more suitable position.

You could win the lottery tomorrow, it's foolish to count on it.

Also cash gives you choices. If you wait and wait, you end up burning cash and learning nothing, which means that your choices a year from now are likely to be more unappealing than the one's now. Alternatively, if you do something (anything) for a year, this builds up cash, but more importantly, it builds up experience and skills. Learning "I hate job X" is part of your education. Getting out of a bad job is part of your education.

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If you end up in academia as a 2nd option it is likely you will not be in the right frame of mind to succeed there, and worse could end up with a poor reference.

So what? If you end up in academia because you have no other options, you are going to be much more horribly exploited than if you can leave. If you end up in academia as a 1st option, then it is quite likely that for reasons out of your control, you won't succeed, and you will either end up with a poor reference, or be someone's slave in order to end up with a not good one.

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twofish
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Posts: 4619
Joined: Feb 2005

Sun Jan 18, 09 06:45 PM

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Originally posted by: CrashedMintReally? Me and a good friend were both hired around Christmas. So, from my personal experience it's not as dire as everybody says it is. Also intern are paid not so much, so I would assume it's possible to get in, especially if you have a math PhD.

Things are different in different parts of the street. If you get hired, things are good. If you are seeing people getting laid off, things are bad. That's why you need to apply to as many places as possible.

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People like positive people. So be positive,

Actually, I've found that it's better to "fake positive" rather than "be positive." I have this optimistic chipper upbeat personality that I put on sometimes like I put on my interview suit. The problem with "being positive" is that it sometimes gets in the way of a realistic appraisal of the situation. On the other hand, if you project positive energy, there is a good chance that you will end up making the interviewer feel better, and that helps a lot.

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Edited: Sun Jan 18, 09 at 06:49 PM by twofish

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StatGuy
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Posts: 605
Joined: Nov 2007

Sun Jan 18, 09 07:01 PM

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Also cash gives you choices. If you wait and wait, you end up burning cash and learning nothing, which means that your choices a year from now are likely to be more unappealing than the one's now. Alternatively, if you do something (anything) for a year, this builds up cash, but more importantly, it builds up experience and skills. Learning "I hate job X" is part of your education. Getting out of a bad job is part of your education.

In the time you are looking for a job you have time to pick up skills that will be valuable when applying for roles that you really want. You have less time when you employed. Taking the wrong job happens, but you have to be careful that it doesn't lead to a bad reference. You have to give yourself some time to explore your 1st option (finance permitting) rather than give up after a few mts trying. As KackToodles suggests below staying enrolled till you find a role more suitable is not a bad idea.

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So what? If you end up in academia because you have no other options, you are going to be much more horribly exploited than if you can leave

Leave where? if you had no other options apart from academia in the 1st place. The danger is you could end up with a string of academic roles that were not quite right for you and end up miserable in the long term.

SG

Edited: Sun Jan 18, 09 at 07:11 PM by StatGuy

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twofish
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Posts: 4619
Joined: Feb 2005

Sun Jan 18, 09 07:15 PM

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Originally posted by: StatGuyWell it is better to leave academia on a good note and keep the door open just in case you may return later in your career as some top professionals do in this area.

If you return to academia, it will be on the basis of acculumated experience and the fact that someone early in your career dislikes you won't matter much, and given the way academia works sometimes the fact that Professor X hates you makes you more attractive. You should always try to leave gracefully, and not gratutiously upset people. On the other hand, some people are just impossible to work with, and if you turn your life upside down to try to please someone that should not be pleased, then it's not good for you or them.

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But if you are certain you will never return, then yes you are right it will not matter much until you need a reference from your last employer.

In business people really don't care much about references from previous employers, because pretty much everyone has some "boss from hell" in their past, and leaving a job because your boss hates you, is pretty common. When people ask, "why you are leaving your job?" it's not that people really care about the reasons. It's more a test of emotional control to see that you can not totally explode if you are in a bad situation. If you start screaming about how awful your boss is, this is a bad answer, even if your boss really is the devil incarnate. If you use the standard corporate code words for "I'm leaving because I hate my boss and my boss hates me." (i.e. we have a difference in outlook) This is a good answer. Mastering corporate-speak and interview-speak is part of your education, and one reason that you gain something by interviewing, even if you don't get the job.

References from *co-workers* are far more important, and in the rare situation where some needs a reference, they generally care a lot more about how the person who sits next to you thinks about you than what your supervisor thinks.

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I guess if youave worked part-time in other jobs as well you can give other references, but if all you have is an academic reference then you have to be careful and not leave on a bad note for the reference sake. This is why it is cruital that you aim for the right jobs in the 1st place and give it a fair amount of time before taking the 2nd option - I would say (up to 1 year) if you have the finance.

Personally, I think this is a seriously, seriously bad idea. I mean horrifically, disastrously bad.

You really don't know what the "right jobs" are. Even if you knew what the right jobs are, they odds are good that they wouldn't hire you. Something that is also part of the education of the Ph.D.'s, is that most Ph.D.'s have always gotten their first or second choice, and have never been in a situation where they have been the fifteenth choice. One somewhat painful lesson I learned was that you don't lose anything if you politely ask and the answer is no, and that you have to ask a ***lot*** of people before you get yes as a answer.

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twofish
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Posts: 4619
Joined: Feb 2005

Sun Jan 18, 09 07:33 PM

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Originally posted by: StatGuyIn the time you are looking for a job you have time to pick up skills that will be valuable when applying for roles that you really want.

The skill of looking for a job is a skill. You really can't learn how to interview unless you interview, and you can't really learn the language of "corporate-speak" unless you talk to people who are fluent in that language. One of the most important skills in business is sales and marketing and looking for a job gives you hand-on practical experience in sales and marketing. One thing that really helped me during my last round of job hunting was that I had spend a lot of time following salesman to see how they act and what they do.

The other problem is that people make decisions on the roles that they want based on incomplete and fragmentary information. It's amazing to me how many people want to be "quants" without really knowing exactly what a quant does. Part of the reason that it's hard to describe what a "quant" does is that there is no longer a single job called "quant" and that term applies to a class of jobs whose skills can be very different from each other.

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You have to give yourself some time to explore your 1st option (finance permitting) rather than give up after a few mts trying.

You can multitask. I'm not saying "don't look for finance jobs." I'm saying look for jobs in financial, academia, and anywhere else at the same time. You will almost certainly not get your first option. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't try, but it means that it is foolish to put all of your time and energy into something that you are unlikely to get. You probably won't get your second option, or your third. When you get to your fifth or sixth option, then maybe you might get somewhere. The more feelers you put out, the more likely it is that someone will bite.

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Leave where? if you had no other options apart from academia in the 1st place.

Whether you have an option or not is largely a psychological issue. If your life is so centered around academia, that you will accept no other role, that is your choice, but there are consequences of that choice that you should be aware of. I've seen people that accept a huge amount of abuse in academia, levels of abuse that I simply could not accept for myself. I'd rather clean toilets with a group of people that treat me with respect, than be a physics professor around people who don't. It is makes them happy, then that's fine, but it doesn't.

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The danger is you could end up with a string of academic roles that were not quite right for you and end up miserable in the long term.

But that could happen (and given the lack of positions in academia, probably will happen) anyway. The fewer options you have (and the less money you have), the more likely it is that you will be trapped. Also, things can change very quickly. I have no idea what the job market will be in three months, and one reason I think it's a good idea to get a job now is that there is a chance that we will be entering an extended period of high unemployment in which people will be lucky to have any job at all. If I'm wrong about this, and good times have returned in three months, then you lose nothing by having a job already. If things get very bad, then having *any* job is going to be a life preserver next year.

At some time in your career, you will have a bad job and an awful set of options. If your career plan depends on everything going according to plan, and other people acting in certain ways, I don't think it is very realistic. This is why I think that the advice that StatGuy gives is horribly, disastrously, awfully bad. If unemployment goes up to 10-15% next year and stays there for two to three years, which it might, then you need to be grabbing onto any life preserver that floats past, and not be too picky if it is the color you want.

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Edited: Sun Jan 18, 09 at 07:50 PM by twofish

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StatGuy
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Sun Jan 18, 09 07:48 PM

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I've seen people that accept a huge amount of abuse in academia, levels of abuse that I simply could not accept for myself. I'd rather clean toilets with a group of people that treat me with respect, than be a physics professor around people who don't. It is makes them happy, then that's fine, but it doesn't.

Equally I have seen people take abuse in industry as well (higher pay is not always a good compensation) - the grass is not always greener on the other side. One has to assess what working environment they will be more suited to and aim their search there as a 1st point of call.

I meet a lot of people who left academia in industry and most of them do have a negative view of it, but sometimes I do wonder if they were just not right for academia in the 1st place, or perhaps were not as *academically* talented.

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You probably won't get your second option, or your third. When you get to your fifth or sixth option, then maybe you might get somewhere. The more feelers you put out, the more likely it is that someone will bite.

What happens if all options lead to no offers ?

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Whether you have an option or not is largely a psychological issue. If your life is so centered around academia, that you will accept no other role, that is your choice, but there are consequences of that choice that you should be aware of.

If the offers available to you were only academic position then it restricts your options anyway. So I guess you either take them of keep applying for industrial roles.

If you sign on you will have some income while looking for a better role, so you can give the 1st option a good shot for 6mts - 1 year whilst learning new skills in the process.

SG

Edited: Sun Jan 18, 09 at 07:51 PM by StatGuy

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