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Topic Title: Fordham MSQF?
Created On Sat Feb 16, 08 03:36 PM

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javahs
Junior Member

Posts: 19
Joined: May 2003

Sat Feb 16, 08 03:36 PM

how about this program's quality? any student in this program? thanks!

Posts: 131
Joined: Dec 2007

Sat Feb 16, 08 04:57 PM

it's a very new program. so new that it can only get 8 students in their first semester past Fall.
3 Americans and 5 International Students.
4 students with experience.
Backgrounds range from econ,math,accounting,computer science and one with an ms in accounting.

Here is a review from a student after his first semester. Not very positive.

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Please do not go by everything the site says literally.
They said they will arrange internships for us. As I explained in my earlier posts. It may not be a internship but a research project for a firm which may be called an internship. This is what might be the case and LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN YOU CAN EMAIL THE DIRECTOR ABOUT THE INTERNSHIP WHETHER WE ACTUALLY WORK AT THE FIRM OR ARE DOING A PROJECT FOR THEM. ASK HIM THE REAL DEFINITION OF INTERNSHIP.

There is a question mark on also what they mean by investment banks.There is no one who can arrange internships at major banks for you. The can get banks to you interview you but that has also not happened.

When I say internship it means working at a firm ....the Professors are eating their words a little.But nothing has happened on the full time side also.

Well my opinion about the internship and getting interviews and not been fully formed as we are still in the process.
But I will tell you what has been happened yet.

The first thing I would say is to email the Director of the program Mr John Finnerty about full time jobs and about how the recruitment
process is going. He does reply.

We at the present moment are a very close knit class with 8 students and we are going to have apporximately 18-20 Professors teach us the program.
So we are lucky.

Coming

There have been no interviews through Fordham. Nothing as yet.The program is still on the development stage in views with jobs.
Frankly the current crisis is not helping according to the director but in my opinion Fordham should have done more homework on this.

But according to our Professors they are trying and I have seen that they are .
The have said that small hedge many of them have approached. But the problem with this program is that the our Professors still look for small internships rather than full time jobs in a one year program. The are trying to get into the bigger investment banks but nothing has happened yet.
Like the program says major investment banks I am not sure what to answer on that yet because nothing has happened yet.

But there is time I will give a better opinion in a month or two on this because all the Professors are working on it.

Plus I was really disappointed when I heard about this. THe internship they say earlier was told to be an internship.
Professors are telling us that it might be a research project where we work in school given by the industry.

That caught a lot of us by suprise. I mean if they are finding it tough for 8 students next year if they take in more it gets much harder.
Plus the internship is considered so that we get a full time job after we complete.This way there is no job.

About the coursework.
Let me tell you for one year your life is 12 hrs in that classroom they have made which is good for 15-20 people. Its a really we made room with everything accessible to us.
The program is well structured. It has good amount of mathematics and finance involved.Most programming happens in Matlab.
But I think learning Stochastic calculas in 71/2 weeks is virtually impossible so we learn whats required so thats a flaw with the program.It happens with many subjects. According to our Professors they want to give as much information they can in one year and then they are like you basically learn in finance when you start working. They are right but the problem is its January 12 and no interview no firm has come yet.

If you do the program you should do the Probability and Statistics course and a basic accounting course in the prerequisites. Its important.

But one flaw the program definately has. Its that they dont do any C++. But I have had programming experience so its okay for me.
But just look up any Quantitative Finance job, what they ask understanding of models,derivatives, etc......some matlab and 90% cases C++.
The professors knew about this but they said how can we teach more . AS it is everyone who comes for their first lecture says we are overboard and its really hard to finish this in 71/2 weeks.

The reason Baruch gets good jobs is that their students are good in C++. And many in some cases go into Algorithmic trading . That is more coding than anything. This program does lack that but we do learn Matlab ,VBA programming to a moderate extent( for a programmeer its nothing ..its for economics guys) excel modelling ,a little SAS in Spring.

But the cost 38.4K plus 1-1.5K for books. And you have to live close. Living manhattan or queens per month. The place is lincoln center.
I say 60K.

Finally I cannot come to a final opinion because the program is mid way. (nothing on any full time job yet)

This program does look good on the outside but I cannot trust everything after I was told the intership was a research project which I would do in school.
( Getting into big investment banks look slim from this program no matter what anyone says because go by correlation when markets are bad they are finding it tough for 8 students when markets will be good and there are 25 its the same thing .....but with small hedge funds we could get in somewhere......but not major investment banks if thats what you guys are looking at......)

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javahs
Junior Member

Posts: 19
Joined: May 2003

Sat Feb 16, 08 05:24 PM

thank! can not believe they dont' have course in c++ in quantitative finance. for serious quant position, c++ is a must, especially now days!

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DominicConnor
Senior Member

Posts: 10695
Joined: Jul 2002

Sat Feb 16, 08 10:45 PM

I would not judge a programme solely upon internships, though in the current market their importance obviously goes up.

Also there is some discussion of "real" internships. Not sure that is useful. We've helped a few people with what we call "internships", though none have formally been called that by the HR at banks.
My view is a temp job held by a student in an area relevant to their career is an internship.

A sponsored research project is not an internship, just ain't. It's a good thing, but not nearly as valuable as an internship.
(you can quote me on that...)
If I'd paid good money for a course where I was promised an internship, I'd be asking for money back.

The Fordham presentation on their course seems to me quite explicit that there would be internships. As a someone that finds jobs professionally I will tell you that
a non-brand college is going to have to work bloody hard to get in on that gig, and wishful thinking ain't gonna work.

40K is a lot to pay to be a lab rat, especially at Fordham which is not a top brand university.
It takes a lot to get the banks to take your MFE seriously, Baruch gets mentioned, and if you go to their site you see how happy they are that they've got JPM to treat them as a target school.
That's their first bank, and as CDQN says, Baruch seems to have some of the best C++ teaching of any MFE, as well as decent maths, and they have had to fight for some years.

Matlab is common in banking but since it's easy to drive very rarely impresses hiring managers, and some HH systems will bin your CV without it being read by a human.

I disagree that you should do basic accounting, indeed the presence of it as an option vaguely worries me.

In looking for the Fordham course I found this gem on their site, which is rather ironic for an institution that is supposed to both have experts in
accountancy and goes on about it's ethical Jesuit values...

Some of the media coverage of Fordham University�s agreement with the Office of the Attorney General has been confusing, especially regarding refunds to students with student loans from certain institutions.
Hands up those who don't think "confusing media coverage", means "we got caught" ?

I am not an expert in Jesuit ethics, but it seems to me that either they're not the experts in accountancy they claim, or the "ethical values" are different to other people's.
Seems to me, that even if they had an ethical lapse, they ought to be good enough at using accountancy at scams to not get caught.

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DominicConnor
Senior Member

Posts: 10695
Joined: Jul 2002

Sun Feb 17, 08 04:51 PM

Before this topic, Fordham was below my radar, but I noticed rather worrying dishonesty on their website...

They say that "Descartes, Moli�re, Alfred Hitchcock, Sting, James Joyce, Dee Dee Myers, and Captain Kangaroo." are products of their system of education.

Decartes and Moli�re were of course educated in France before there was a Fordham university, Sting was educated in England and although he has achieved much, no one claims he did that through education, not least because he flunked out of university.
(he became a teacher, hence the Lolita references in "don't stand so close to me"), so perhaps there is some Jesuit in him after all...

Also he's a Buddhist, not a doctrine favoured by the Jesuits.
James Joyce was educated in Ireland, and his "adoption" by Fordham which is ironic.
Fordham has been caught in dodgy financial dealings against the interests of its students trying to pay its fees.
Joyce was thrown out of his Jesuit school because his father could no longer afford to pay the Jesuits.
Which bit of that is Fordham saying we should admire ?

Dee Dee Myers was at least educated in the same continent as Fordham, but apparently as far away as one can be in the lower 48 states, not at Fordham.
I'm not sure what Captain Kangaroo is as an aspirational figure, but am pretty sure he's not a Fordham alumnus.

Sir Alfred Hitchcock was born and educated within walking distance of where I am currently sitting. I am not in NY, nor even the USA, but in what Fordham might profitably learn of as "London"
Indeed it is notable that half the list they cite were educated under British rule. Are we to think there is a connection ?
No.

What is even more entertaining is the utter lack in that list of anyone who studied at Fordham.

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dmk345
Junior Member

Posts: 8
Joined: Feb 2008

Tue Feb 26, 08 07:37 PM

.

Edited: Mon Mar 10, 08 at 10:57 PM by dmk345

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DominicConnor
Senior Member

Posts: 10695
Joined: Jul 2002

Tue Feb 26, 08 08:11 PM

I must say Fordham seem to have a growing ethical deficit, and it's not just having legal trouble with student finances.

Internships do not "just happen", if a university wants to include them as part of it's programme then it has to set them up.
The "current climate" simply is not an issue, they should have done this a year ago, hell if I were doing it, the base agreement would be 18 months.
Thus Fordham's excuse is simply invalid.

Even good students from top schools sometimes struggle or fail to get internships, unless the university has something set up.
As a quant headhunter I know that one can never guarantee them without an agreement that is very tough to get.

So either Fordham were bullshitting, or hopelessly disorganised.

But a newbie could not realistically know that internships are so fought over, and Fordham seem to have exploited this to their financial advantage.
MFEs are big business now for universities, and this seems to be one result.

I agree that the projects themselves do not have to come from a big bank, but it is obviously better to make a good impression to a major player than a small one, it is plainly shoddy.
A "project" is useful, but a whole order of magnitude less than an internship, the thing you were promised.

I'm not a lawyer, but...

My decision to join the program would have changed if that was the case. But if you are writing it you should provide it.
Fordham have cost you non-trivial money, if it were me the stink raised would be non trivial.

As a headhunter, I can tell you for a fact that banks value post-interns, even if they didn't intern at the firm.
My guess is that they've knocked 20% off first and 2nd year income, and doubled the chances of you not getting a job quickly.
That's a bad thing.

Even the program faculty have tried
Who told you that ?
I am far from convinced. My guess is they made 10 calls, got bored, and went home.
Someone with integrity would have harassed alumni, and contact headhunters. They'd have cold called banks, and yes, put up adverts on Wilmott.com, and other sites.
Did this happen ? Really ?
For the sort of money they are charging, that is what you should have got.
Anyone can screw up, and I'm on that list, but when I do, I try more than ordinarily hard to fix it.

I know about getting jobs for people, and this is the easy advice, the stuff I give for free.

My for you advice is quite simple.
Find one of the bozos who run your course that you think can read.
Walk him over to a PC, and get him to read this.
Help him with the long words.
Inform him that this is by far the top forum for quants and those who want to be one when they grow up.

Then get him to google on my name "dominic connor"
He won't like what he reads.
Then ask him what they are going to do about it.

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Discussion on the new regulations on bonuses here.

Posts: 131
Joined: Dec 2007

Wed Feb 27, 08 03:51 AM

DCFC makes it like they screw up big time. Maybe they do.
It's a classic case of trying to run before learning to walk - or before having proper shoes put on.

dmk345, my condolences. You will never look at big, shinny institutions with the same eyes again.

Give it some time before the words leak out. They would have no problem getting more students next year.

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jawabean
Senior Member

Posts: 3859
Joined: Apr 2007

Wed Feb 27, 08 04:04 AM

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Originally posted by: javahs
thank! can not believe they dont' have course in c++ in quantitative finance. for serious quant position, c++ is a must, especially now days!

why would i pay $$$ per credit to get C++ in transcript?! u can do it elsewhere, in community college for 1/10 of a price. u'd better get some more finance for the money spent

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dmk345
Junior Member

Posts: 8
Joined: Feb 2008

Wed Feb 27, 08 07:30 AM

..

Edited: Sat Mar 08, 08 at 11:36 PM by dmk345

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albertmills
Member

Posts: 197
Joined: Mar 2007

Fri Feb 29, 08 08:43 PM

DCFC: In reading your remarks am I correctly interpreting that the MFE programs where an internship is a component of the program (CMU, UCB) arrange them well in advance of when the internship takes place with the firms (an agreement will be reached between a firm & program to have this many interns at this level pay, way before the actual internship begins)?

If that's so then recent internship statistics alone from these programs in the current market are meaningless, because they arranged the inerships and agreed to the pay level way before last summer?

Thanks.

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DominicConnor
Senior Member

Posts: 10695
Joined: Jul 2002

Sun Mar 02, 08 04:14 PM

If that's so then recent internship statistics alone from these programs in the current market are meaningless,
Even when things were better, I was saying that the statistics in general were pretty useless, but to answer to answer your question they are even more meaningless now.
Some MFE programs talk of X% employment or earnings of $Y, but rarely tell you what these people were earning before.

As a HH, I have data on which schools I see as good at helping their students get jobs. I don't have numbers it's a "good, mediocre, crap, or unknown" scale.
Baruch is very good, as is Courant, Imperial, and Cass is OK(though I get some bitching about Cass, I think they're rather better than average).

My model is of course impaired by sampling errors, and it is in this sort of market that I shall learn (and share of course) how good they are.

because they arranged the inerships and agreed to the pay level way before last summer?
Where agreements exist, I'd expect them to be ongoing over years and re-checked before each term. That's how I'd do it.
To be frank I don't know how internship pay levels are set. The managers I speak to just "find out", I've never penetrated a bank to the depth where this is decided.

Part of me thinks that P&D should bid to outsource internship and newbie careers stuff, but the politics would be so awful I laugh at myself.

I correctly interpreting that the MFE programs where an internship is a component of the program (CMU, UCB) arrange them well in advance of when the internship takes place with the firm
CMU have not shared with me the agreements they have with banks.
It may be that their reputation, calibre of students and contacts mean that they can do it without any formal agreement.
A big, established school can do that, without it being entirely reckless, though I doubt if there are many places which have formal contracts.

The most common form of process is that a MFE school with good reputation/contacts sends the interns to a bank in the sort of game of tag we played as kids.
Each group grabs the ones it likes, leaving others to be picked up in the next round.

Some banks rotate interns through working at different desks to see where they will stick, and some combine these two processes.

This sort of thing is typically relationship based, with semi-formal agreements. Banks would be very loathe to break these, and in the cases where it wasn't feasible (like the target desk had been shut down), that would be a sufficiently small % that a proactive department head could sort it out with a few phone calls.
People like Dan Stefanica of Baruch, and Peter Carr of Courant do a fine job of making sure their kids get placed.

To me it's a level of commitment thing.
If someone offers to buy me a beer, but finds that armed Hells Angels have taken over the bar, I don't expect him to do a bezerker attack on them.

If Fordham charges newbies $40,000 for a package that promises an internship, I'd expect them to be professional about it, that means getting agreements from the banks before I promised anyone anything.
"Agreement" in this context means multiple managers at multiple banks sending me an email committing to take N interns.
If that went tits up, I'd expect the bezerker attack of ringing every single person in the alumni, harassing HR departments. That's hard, and unpleasant work (and yes it's part of headhunting), but for $40K you expect some effort.
Actually it could work out well, since at the end of the effort, you'd have got most of next year's cohort set up as well.

I'm talking to one university about it's MFE, and they haven't even got students for it yet, they aren't promising internships because they have integrity.
Integrity isn't just not lying it is making some effort to ensure that what you say is true. Ironically I was given that view of integrity by the Jesuit system that Fordham espouses, but apparently does not follow.

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Discussion on the new regulations on bonuses here.

Edited: Sun Mar 02, 08 at 06:18 PM by DominicConnor

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Cuchulainn
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Posts: 16364
Joined: Jul 2004

Sun Mar 02, 08 04:34 PM

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Originally posted by: DCFC
James Joyce was educated in Ireland, and his "adoption" by Fordham which is ironic.
Fordham has been caught in dodgy financial dealings against the interests of its students trying to pay its fees.
Joyce was thrown out of his Jesuit school because his father could no longer afford to pay the Jesuits.
Which bit of that is Fordham saying we should admire ?

I would add this guy to the list, the major influence on Joyce in Finnegans Wake...

Vico

I reckon Joyce would have survived any system you threw at him.

Clongowes alumni

The CEO Rynair went there too...

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Edited: Sun Mar 02, 08 at 04:42 PM by Cuchulainn

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DominicConnor
Senior Member

Posts: 10695
Joined: Jul 2002

Sun Mar 02, 08 06:38 PM

Of course there are any number of distinguished people, who've been educated by Jesuits.
However Fordham seems to have remarkably few of them, preferring instead to cite the names of people who were educated in other Jesuit institutions.

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ppauper
Senior Member

Posts: 27123
Joined: Nov 2001

Sun Mar 02, 08 06:59 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: DCFC
Before this topic, Fordham was below my radar, but I noticed rather worrying dishonesty on their website...

They say that "Descartes, Moli�re, Alfred Hitchcock, Sting, James Joyce, Dee Dee Myers, and Captain Kangaroo." are products of their system of education.

Decartes and Moli�re were of course educated in France before there was a Fordham university, Sting was educated in England and although he has achieved much, no one claims he did that through education, not least because he flunked out of university.

I was concerned about this when I read your post.
I too checked out the Fordham website:
Fordham seems to be mentioning these folks in the context of the "Jesuit approach to education" and is not claiming they went to Fordham.
I don't doubt that all of those mentioned received their education at least in part from the Jesuits; why that's germane is of course a legitimate question.

The link with some of those names can be determined by using the google:

>>Alfred Hitchcock was born in London in 1899 and was brought up with a rather strict Catholic background
>>notably at Saint Ignatius, a Jesuit preparatory school in London

>>Joyce received a fine classical education at Jesuit schools, including University College, Dublin.

>> Descartes was....educated at the Jesuit College of La Fl�che between 1606 and 1614.

Fordham University does have some semi-famous alumni:
Alan Alda, Denzel Washington, Captain Kangaroo, Wellington Mara (New York Giants President), Vin Scully, P.J. Carlesimo, Geraldine Ferraro and legendary coach Vince Lombardi.

Dom's logic seems to be that you shouldn't go to Fordham because he dislikes catholics.
Specious reasoning at best.

The real issue is whether you are likely to get a good job at the end or not.

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TraderJoe
Senior Member

Posts: 11057
Joined: Feb 2005

Sun Mar 02, 08 11:42 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: ppauper
Quote
Originally posted by: DCFC
Before this topic, Fordham was below my radar, but I noticed rather worrying dishonesty on their website...

They say that "Descartes, Moli�re, Alfred Hitchcock, Sting, James Joyce, Dee Dee Myers, and Captain Kangaroo." are products of their system of education.

Decartes and Moli�re were of course educated in France before there was a Fordham university, Sting was educated in England and although he has achieved much, no one claims he did that through education, not least because he flunked out of university.

I was concerned about this when I read your post.
I too checked out the Fordham website:
Fordham seems to be mentioning these folks in the context of the "Jesuit approach to education" and is not claiming they went to Fordham.
I don't doubt that all of those mentioned received their education at least in part from the Jesuits; why that's germane is of course a legitimate question.

The link with some of those names can be determined by using the google:

>>Alfred Hitchcock was born in London in 1899 and was brought up with a rather strict Catholic background
>>notably at Saint Ignatius, a Jesuit preparatory school in London

>>Joyce received a fine classical education at Jesuit schools, including University College, Dublin.

>> Descartes was....educated at the Jesuit College of La Fl�che between 1606 and 1614.

Fordham University does have some semi-famous alumni:
Alan Alda, Denzel Washington, Captain Kangaroo, Wellington Mara (New York Giants President), Vin Scully, P.J. Carlesimo, Geraldine Ferraro and legendary coach Vince Lombardi.

Dom's logic seems to be that you shouldn't go to Fordham because he dislikes catholics.
Specious reasoning at best.

The real issue is whether you are likely to get a good job at the end or not.

Is it just me, or is Dom becoming more & more bitter/cynical in his old age? We could be witnessing the Richard Dawkins of head hunters

.

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DominicConnor
Senior Member

Posts: 10695
Joined: Jul 2002

Mon Mar 03, 08 11:04 AM

ppauper :The real issue is whether you are likely to get a good job at the end or not.
Agreed 100%.
TraderJoe, you're standing up for Fordham, care to answer why you like a quant course that has accountancy, but not C++ ?

Actually, if you read my posts, you will see mention of the Jesuit input into my education....
Some of my view of right and wrong is highly Jesuit in origin, and of course lying is wrong in most ethical systems.
You may recall my first name is "Dominic"....

As for it being an attack on Catholics, that is odd in this context.
Fordham has a higher % of Catholic students than other places, and I am making a fuss on behalf of those students who apparently are being ripped off.
Thus I am helping Catholics, not because they are Catholics, not even in spite of them being Catholics but because helping people is what I do, and to be honest the Jesuits
may be partly responsible for my view.

I was at some pains, not to criticise Fordham for being Jesuit, but pointed out that it's conduct falls far short of that ethical position.
Going back to lessons I had from a Jesuit at 9/10, if I disapprove of someone's conduct because they fail to meet a standard, it follows that I am endorsing that standard.
TJ, PPauper, I take that unlike me neither of you were beneficiaries of Jesuit lessons in ethics ?
I note that neither TJ, nor ppauper care to mention the fact that Fordham got caught in a financial scam against its students. Fraud is not a theological position.

As for the claims that Fordham's claims to Moliere et al are bogus.
I teach using the same method that is responsible for Einstein, Newton, Feynman, Black, Scholes and George W. Bush.
ie, I stand up in front of a people, say stuff, and write in on a board, occasionally I ask and answer questions.

But that's just silly isn't it ?
If I were to make that claim in a brochure that asked for $40K, it would be some combination of dishonest and stupid.
Same with Fordham.

Ppauper has found some alumni, and I would have no issue at all with Fordham citing them.
However, it's not that impressive a list, is it ?
You could argue that acting is an intellectual activity, so I'll cede Messrs. Alda Washington, (but that is being generous).
But a collection of sporting types does not tell me that Fordham is a place that makes people smarter.

But ppapuper, I feel you could do better, surely ?
Geraldine Ferraro was not exactly hugely successful, and of course one of the reasons she didn't get far were serious issues about her integrity with respect to money.
Not exactly the best person to refute my position about ethical lapses are Fordham is she ?
Indeed, given that she was an honourable pro-choice advocate in a time& place where that was dangerous, not crowd pleasing, it's not clear the the Jesuit/Catholic teaching stuck all that well.

As for Dawkins. I've drunk with him (my hobby gets me jaunts like that), and he's not bitter or twisted.
He's opinionated and very smart, of course.
He's also rich, and married to a woman who was twice voted sexiest woman in Britain.
Relatively few people would be bitter about that.

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Discussion on the new regulations on bonuses here.

Edited: Mon Mar 03, 08 at 03:49 PM by DominicConnor

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TraderJoe
Senior Member

Posts: 11057
Joined: Feb 2005

Mon Mar 03, 08 01:35 PM

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DCFC: Thus I am helping Catholics, not because they are Catholics, not even in spite of them being Catholics but because helping people is what I do.

Do your Fordham students want you "helping" them though? Have you asked them before appointing yourself chief representative of all that is *wrong* at Fordham? I didn't think so.

Also, Dawkins is a truly bitter and twisted individual as countless wincingly embarrassing television interviews with him, articles about him and his recently published books and articles will attest to. No, I wouldn't want to be richard dawkins for all the rice in China, thank you.

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That the ultimate felicity of man consists in the contemplation of God � St. Thomas Aquinas.