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Topic Title: One who doesn't understand X is best qualified to talk about it
Created On Thu Jun 19, 08 11:21 AM

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Herd
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Posts: 536
Joined: Oct 2003

Thu Jun 19, 08 11:21 AM

I readthis this morning.

People like him do more harm to the "global warming movement" than good....

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Paul
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Thu Jun 19, 08 03:24 PM

Reminded me of this.

P

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ppauper
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Joined: Nov 2001

Thu Jun 19, 08 03:36 PM

folks seem to regard a guy who failed out of both law school and divinity school and has no scientific training as the leader of the global warming movement

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MCarreira
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Posts: 1715
Joined: Jul 2002

Thu Jun 19, 08 03:45 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Paul
Reminded me of this.

P

I've seen this happening, word of mouth is responsible for most of alternative medicine success. People find it hard to resist to peer pressure, and you can imagine the lines:

- I had this problem, nothing worked, so I tried ____ (add your favourite alternative method) and it worked !

You:

- But this is not scientific, and it has been proved that it does not work.

Answer:

- Well, Mr Know-It-All, it worked for me ... maybe it does not work for you because you do not believe in it. At least if you were not so stubborn ...

-------------------------
"Let your actions speak your will" - VNV Nation

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farmer
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Joined: Dec 2002

Thu Jun 19, 08 04:03 PM

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Originally posted by: MCarreira
I've seen this happening, word of mouth is responsible for most of alternative medicine success. People find it hard to resist to peer pressure, and you can imagine the lines: - I had this problem, nothing worked, so I tried ____ (add your favourite alternative method) and it worked !

People do nonsense all day. They watch TV, they pay hundreds of dollars to sit on the deck of a boat that drops them off the same place they got on. They smoke cigarettes. They buy shoes they will never wear, they get mud baths, they hire psychologists and personal trainers with no measurable track record. Why beat up on psychics and healers?

The things guys need to make it through the day and be content are fairly straightforward, and understood to guys. It is probably nothing more than beer, hookers, and the local team winning a football game. But girls are slaves to much more subtle and intuitive compulsions. They need intangibles to beat the misery, they need fashion, they need things I can't put my finger on. Their brains punish them mercilessly with restless discontent, until they take actions which make no sense, but which for some reason win them some reprieve.

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Cuchulainn
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Posts: 29298
Joined: Jul 2004

Thu Jun 19, 08 04:10 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Paul
Reminded me of this.

P

Paul,
Never trust doctors, whatever the age. In general, the problem is knowing what one does not know and in this case the knee-jerk reaction is a pill. But you knew that already.

Torn ligaments heal very slowly, if at all.

-------------------------
www.datasimfinancial.com

Edited: Thu Jun 19, 08 at 04:12 PM by Cuchulainn

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TraderJoe
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Posts: 11057
Joined: Feb 2005

Thu Jun 19, 08 04:29 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: ppauper
folks seem to regard a guy who failed out of both law school and divinity school and has no scientific training as the leader of the global warming movement

God uses whomever He chooses. And, well, it looks like Satan is using you pretty well ppauperboy.

-------------------------
That the ultimate felicity of man consists in the contemplation of God � St. Thomas Aquinas.

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TraderJoe
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Joined: Feb 2005

Thu Jun 19, 08 04:33 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Herd
I readthis this morning.

People like him do more harm to the "global warming movement" than good....

Nah, don't underestimate the power of the layman.

Lynas's Six Degrees wins Royal Society award.

Six Degrees - Mark Lynas.

-------------------------
That the ultimate felicity of man consists in the contemplation of God � St. Thomas Aquinas.

Edited: Thu Jun 19, 08 at 04:37 PM by TraderJoe

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TraderJoe
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Posts: 11057
Joined: Feb 2005

Thu Jun 19, 08 04:36 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Paul
Reminded me of this.

P

Good story Paul.

-------------------------
That the ultimate felicity of man consists in the contemplation of God � St. Thomas Aquinas.

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exneratunrisk
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Posts: 2735
Joined: Apr 2004

Thu Jun 19, 08 04:44 PM

Do we really need to know all how the bomb functions in detail, in order to understand its multi-layered effects; and talk about it?
I do not (understand), but do (talk).

"We" hope to have enough (scientific) background on how to heal and recover (if). Medical doctors, psychologists, social scientists,....AND communicators become
much more important than bomb scientists then. Communicators especially?

Global warming. It is not only to know what buttons we can turn, to avoid, say, CO2 increase. We also need to
know how to avoid frustrated societies, if our desperate button turning influences their development significantly.
Frustrated societies are like bombs...(most of us do not know how they function, but they explode quick. As an Austrian, I just need to think 70 years back)

-------------------------
Our news and views: UnRisk Insight

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gardener3
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Thu Jun 19, 08 04:58 PM

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Well, Mr Know-It-All, it worked for me ... maybe it does not work for you because you do not believe in it. At least if you were not so stubborn ...

That is precisely the reason why these things sometimes work. There are studies that show how powerful the placebo affect of these drugs can be. Sometimes thinking does make it so

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gardener3
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Posts: 1419
Joined: Apr 2004

Thu Jun 19, 08 04:59 PM

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But girls are slaves to much more subtle and intuitive compulsions. They need intangibles to beat the misery, they need fashion, they need things I can't put my finger on. Their brains punish them mercilessly with restless discontent, until they take actions which make no sense, but which for some reason win them some reprieve.

How is the 10 step program coming along?

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Paul
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Posts: 4984
Joined: Jul 2001

Thu Jun 19, 08 05:12 PM

I am very happy with the concept of the placebo effect. But torn ligaments are bloody painful and will get far, far worse (as Cuch says, perhaps incurably so) if not treated "properly"! (Not that placebos aren't proper for some ills.)

The prescribing of homeopathic medicines can still be scientifically justified for the placebo effect. But prescribing because they are trendy among the gullible cannot.

Worse to come: Obecalp.

P

Edited: Thu Jun 19, 08 at 05:12 PM by Paul

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Traden4Alpha
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Posts: 14058
Joined: Sep 2002

Thu Jun 19, 08 05:33 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Paul
Reminded me of this.

P

But isn't homeopathy the perfect treatment for at least two classes of conditions? First, the placebo effect can be a scientifically-provable powerful treament, especially for pain-related aliments. Second, homeopathy may be good for patients that "want to do something" about a condition that has no possible active treatment. I'd imagine that a large percentage of patients and a large percentage of minor aliments are "best" treated with physiologically useless ingredients.

That said, homeopathy, meditation, prayer, etc. won't change the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere or influence the infrared spectrum of greenhouse gases.

-------------------------
"It often happens that a player carries out a deep and complicated calculation, but fails to spot something elementary right at the first move." -- grandmaster Alexander Kotov --inscribed on gift chess sets given by Amaranth hedge fund.

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Paul
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Posts: 4984
Joined: Jul 2001

Thu Jun 19, 08 05:38 PM

I agree. And maybe I'll even benefit for some things. But not homeopathy for a torn ligament because this is fashionable among idiots!

P

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Paul
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Posts: 4984
Joined: Jul 2001

Thu Jun 19, 08 05:41 PM

People seemed to be concerned with the efficacy of placebos. That's not the issue, they are fine at times and in certain situations.

The problem is with doctors giving their 'customers' what they want rather than what is best for them. Why bother training the doctors at all? That'll save the NHS a fortune. (I hope Brown doesn't read this!)

P

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farmer
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Posts: 12457
Joined: Dec 2002

Thu Jun 19, 08 07:28 PM

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Originally posted by: Paul
because this is fashionable among idiots!

What? Taxes? Global warming? Shiny cars? Socialism? Oh, you're just talking about homeopathy, whatever...

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Originally posted by: gardener3
How is the 10 step program coming along?

Based on what happened last night, and if the past is any guide, I have a red-hot Columbian stripper moving in this week. But I'm not sure the past is any guide, this girl is a real square, she lives with her mother right now. But I could use a change of pace from the sluts and loonies, so maybe it will turn out well. Anyway she is hot as Hell, so the root of 90% of problems is taken care of right from the start.

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Herd
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Posts: 536
Joined: Oct 2003

Fri Jun 20, 08 09:50 AM

Would you be saying the same thing ("Nah, don't underestimate the power of the layman") if the article had been written by a "global warming denier"?

This (climate change) is a (highly complicated) scientific subject.

I m sure people here have noticed that - in life - people don t make opinions rationaly. Usually people start with an opinion, and then they try to justify it with what looks like a rational argument.
How many people (in the climate change debate) have looked at the issue from a really neutral/objective perspective?

My impression is that
- a lot of people don t look at the scientific part at all but have an opinion anyway (based on what they read in newspapers/their political preferences/what looks more cool)
- another large group will give you links to papers/websites that support their side of the story (but have they reviewed the arguments/ do they understand the arguments of the other side?).

I have personaly tried to look at it objectively (maybe not entirely obectively as I naturaly go against the crowd, and I m really annoyed by all the marketing based on global warming, well at least I m aware of it), and I ve found that many scientists disagree. Even within the IPCC there were pressures, and any members disagreed with the "consensus".

Disturbingly, I have noticed that most of the "global warming deniers" were old professors. And I tend to believe more old professors, because they have nothing to lose anymore, there is no way to pressure them and they say what they really think, whereas young experts have their career ahead of them and they d have to be incredibly courageous to go against the flow (cf movie about Svensmark on youtube). If you want grants, promotions etc better stay with the flow and make no ennemy!

Also, for the non scientific citizens, fighting climate change makes you feel/look really good:
- you get the impression you re saving the planet
- you get to preach a bit (many people like to do that, political activists, religious, etc)
- by making a small save the planet effort, you get a feel good factor that s probably close to what religious people experience when they fast.
- you generally come across as a good person, caring, responsible etc...

My impression is that quite a few scientists have been influenced by:
- the principle of precaution
- political ideals: it s good to encourage a way of life in which people consume less.
I agree with those two arguments, but the second one is not really honest (you tell people they should consume less because of the planet but the true reason is you want to change society)...

Finaly (and of course this has nothing to with the sceintific debate), this climate change thing is gold for marketing.
I mean, how can you beat the "buy this, and you ll do your bit to save the planet"...
The irony is of course that the best solution would probably not to buy it :-)

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Herd
Senior Member

Posts: 536
Joined: Oct 2003

Fri Jun 20, 08 10:59 AM

To get back to the original debate:

My experience of reading articles in scientific magazines and also in reading popular science books, is that I just find the ones written by "academics/experts" much better (in every sense) than the ones written by "journalists".

So I just found it a bit rich that a journalist/writer claims (and argues) the opposite.

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TraderJoe
Senior Member

Posts: 11057
Joined: Feb 2005

Fri Jun 20, 08 01:55 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Herd
To get back to the original debate:

My experience of reading articles in scientific magazines and also in reading popular science books, is that I just find the ones written by "academics/experts" much better (in every sense) than the ones written by "journalists".

So I just found it a bit rich that a journalist/writer claims (and argues) the opposite.

Some of the very best lay books on physics/science are written by non-academic writers - they can quite often write and express the ideas and get the big picture across better than academics. If you're serious about understanding the facts on climate change, then why haven't you done more research?

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That the ultimate felicity of man consists in the contemplation of God � St. Thomas Aquinas.

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