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Topic Title: Europe and immigration: Dutch running out of Netherlands; settling in Canada, Australia, New Zeland
Created On Sat Apr 23, 05 08:48 PM
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mikebell
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Sat Apr 23, 05 08:48 PM
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Interesting article, to say the least. Who wants to dust off their crystal ball and gaze into the future and make some predictions?

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'It just doesn't feel like Holland any more'
Troubled by the changes immigration has brought to their country, the van Ramhorst family is coming to Canada DOUG SAUNDERS says

Globe and Mail

ROTTERDAM -- To a visitor, the village of Nijkerk looks like a model of Dutch calm and order, its neat streets filled with cyclists and lined with tiny townhouses.

But to Bert van Ramshorst and his family, the town no longer feels like home. Its citizens now come in a variety of hues and hold a wide range of beliefs, some of them deeply at odds with the pacifism and expansive liberalism that has long characterized Dutch society.

"I've lived here, in this town, almost all of my life, and it just doesn't feel like Holland any more," the 42-year-old electrical contractor said, as he took a break from packing to sit with his wife and three young children in their narrow, cozy living room. "It doesn't feel like the place where I want to raise my family."

So the van Ramshorst family, troubled by the changes brought about by immigration, have decided to become immigrants themselves.

With their move to Vancouver this summer, they are joining an unprecedented number of people from the Netherlands who have decided, in recent months, to make a new home in what they see as the more comforting and less divisive Canada.

The sudden exodus to Canada has taken the Dutch government entirely by surprise.

During the past year, and especially during the past five months, the number of Dutch citizens applying to depart for faraway countries -- notably Canada, as well as New Zealand and Australia -- has increased to levels not seen in the tiny nation's modern history.

Most of those emigrants, according to the people who help them make their moves, are leaving because of their complex and surprising feelings about the changes to Dutch society brought about by immigration.

For some, the desire to leave is a response to the immigrants themselves, and what many people here view as their violent, divisive, non-Dutch ways.

But just as many Dutch immigrants seem to be alarmed that immigration has turned their countrymen into angry, intolerant nationalists.

In just about every country in Europe, immigration has become the most significant political issue, by far, in public opinion, media attention and parliamentary action. In Germany, France, Britain and Italy, immigrants have become the dominant election issue.

Faced with shrinking, aging populations and the attendant economic costs, most European countries are badly in need of immigrants. In some countries, this has led to culture shock.

The ethnic cleansing and mass migration of the two world wars left many European countries with one dominant ethnic group, so the presence of large numbers of visibly different people has alarmed and alienated many residents.

Nowhere is this being more strongly felt than in traditionally tolerant, open nations such as Britain and the Netherlands.

While both countries face severe labour shortages and therefore cannot give up on immigration, the public reaction to the demographic changes has been nothing short of fury.

In the campaign leading toward the May 5 national election in Britain, polls show that immigration is by far the most significant issue to voters of all classes and backgrounds -- outpacing by an enormous margin other hot topics such as crime and taxation.

Even the governing left-wing Labour Party has felt compelled to adopt the angry rhetoric of the anti-immigrant right, and has promised to cut back the number of refugees accepted (if not the number of immigrants).

In the Netherlands, the reaction has been equally heated. But there, people are voting with their feet.

"The entire society is changing and people are longing for the world of 20, 30 years ago -- some people believe they can only find that by leaving," says Frans Buysse, a former Canadian embassy employee who runs Holland's largest agency for people wishing to emigrate to Canada.

Mr. Buysse can pinpoint the precise moment when the Dutch outflow became a full-scale flood. On Nov. 2, the libertine filmmaker

Theo van Gogh was murdered in a bloody throat slitting by a Muslim extremist while cycling on an Amsterdam street. To outsiders, it seemed a strange, passing crime. But the Dutch responded, within their tight-knit community, the way some Americans did to the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

Suddenly, people were noticing immigrant crimes, and committing crimes against immigrants: December saw the firebombing of several mosques and Islamic schools.

During the next four weeks, Mr. Buysse received 13,000 on-line applications from people requesting information on moving to Canada -- more than four times the usual level. Since then, this increase hasn't stopped. And, he says, the thousands of people he has helped move to Canada during the past few years have mentioned either immigration, or intolerance resulting from immigration, as a reason for leaving.

"For certain people, Nov. 2 was a confirmation of their beliefs," he said. "As a society, we have always been very tolerant to people from other places -- for hundreds of years, this has been the case -- but we have become so tolerant that some groups are influencing society in such a way that it starts to become intolerant. People are fed up with this."

While Dutch emigrants cite numerous reasons for going to Canada, including job opportunities, a desire for adventure, and especially the wide-open spaces that are almost absent from the Netherlands, Mr. Buysse and other immigration workers say it is the tension over immigration that has pushed the emigrant numbers so high recently.

According to the Dutch Central Bureau of Statistics, 49,000 people emigrated last year, the highest number since 1954 and a dramatic increase over approximately 30,000 in 1999.

But the statistics do not reveal the strange and often contradictory motives that are driving away thousands of citizens of the Netherlands, a country that has better standards of health care, education and social services and a lower crime rate than most Canadian cities.

The Dutch, a trading people, have had outsiders in their midst for centuries. And while the past two decades have seen a more open approach to immigration from non-European countries, something about this latest wave has deeply galvanized the country against immigration.

Some blame the Dutch policy of cultural segregation, where groups such as North African Muslims are allowed to attend their own schools and not encouraged to learn the local language or culture. Others blame the simple insularity of Dutch society, which forces newcomers into such enclaves, with little hope of wider acceptance.

For two computer technicians in Rotterdam, the problem has to do not with immigration itself, but with the Dutch response to it. In the view of Ge-An Van Rossum, 36, and her husband, Bas Rijniersce, 29, Canada is a place where the tension between immigrants and non-immigrants does not exist, because that distinction does not exist.

"Canadians are all immigrants," Mr. Rijniersce said from the austere living room of their flat in a funky corner of Rotterdam. "One or two generations back, they all emigrated from somewhere else. But here in the Netherlands there has been quite a lot of problems with this question -- integration doesn't work so well. In Canada it's worked better, though I don't know why. There's a little bit more tolerance between people than there is here."

For Mr. van Ramshorst, the small-town electrician, the problem is simply that Holland has let too many people in without any attention to their ability to fit into Dutch society.

"The last 10 years, our government's policy was to tolerate almost everything, and that's not good," he said. "There's law, and there's respect of the law, and you can't just let people do anything. Tolerance is very important, but we've reached the point where we're tolerating people who despise our way of life and want to damage it."

Those fleeing what they see as a degenerating society face difficulties with Canada's immigration system. Even for the well-educated Dutch, it takes two or three years to get an unsponsored application cleared, a tougher process than most people undergo to get into the Netherlands, although Canada takes far more immigrants, as a proportion of its population, than Holland.

This difficulty has become an inspiration for some in the Netherlands, who blame their country's ad hoc immigration system for the cultural clashes. Some favour adopting the Canadian system wholesale.

"We are only now beginning to understand that now we are an immigrant country, and that we therefore need an immigration law," Mr. Buysse said. "Canada has understood that for a long time, and its points system seems to be a good model for us."

So it may seem surprising, after all the effort and research involved, that both the van Ramshorst and the Van Rossum families have decided to settle in the area immediately around Vancouver. (Dutch immigration consultants say that Alberta and British Columbia are the two most popular destinations.) After all, this is a highly multicultural region that has had its own conflicts over assimilation and intolerance.

But both families said that they don't see this as a problem -- in fact, they see B.C.'s heavy immigrant population as benefiting them, as they, too, will be immigrants.

"There's a different social consensus in Canada," Mr. Rijniersce said. "People are more interested in becoming part of Canadian society, and nobody makes a big deal about their arrival."

Netherlands emigration

An unprecedented number of Dutch citizens are deciding to leave Holland and seek citizenship in Canada to escape what they see as at home.

Dutch-born leaving the country

1995: 38,507
1996: 40,365
1997: 37,849
1998: 35,778
1999: 35,785
2000: 37,414
2001: 39,380
2002: 46,631
2003: 45,946

SOURCE: CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION CANADA, STATISTICS NETHERLANDS


Edited: Sun Apr 24, 05 at 02:24 AM by mikebell
 
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Cuchulainn
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> Most of those emigrants, according to the people who help them make their moves, are leaving because of
> their complex and surprising feelings about the changes to Dutch society brought about by immigration.

The real situation is a bit more complex and subtle. Having lived here for 30 years, speaking the language and running my own training and s/w company I have something to say.

. 30 years ago Holland had one of the best educational systems in Europe. I came to Holland for a number of reasons, one of which was there was work (1970's Ireland was not easy). Everyone was doing well and there was a good health care system. If you lost your job unemployment benefits could be gotten.
. For unskilled work people from Turkey, Morocco were brought in to do the job. No attempt at integration becaus these people would only be staying a few years anyway.

// 20 years go by

In 2005 we are witnessing a completely different story; the educational system is in a real mess because of policy changes by governments that are only interested in saving money (what a mentality), health care is much worse when compared to 10 years ago. There is a severe lack of people with maths skill, enterpreneurs and others who will generate new wealth.

So you could say that we are going through real crises (plural) at the moment. In my opinion the old norms and values (and I don't necessarily mean religious) have been thrown to the four winds. The economy is the worst performing of EU (with the exception of Portugal).

People always have scapegoats when things are not going well. The current situation is no different. Of course immigrants are responsible for crime but there are also Dutch bad boys as well.

So, many people leave for many reasons, one of which is what is in your document. It is not the only reason.
A major reason is that many people are pissed off with the government. If Pim Fortuyn had not been murdered he would have become PM and challenged the stagnant state of affairs in Dutch politics.

These are some of my views. Not being a Dutch citizen (I have an Irish passport) it is not maybe correct for me to give a definitive answer to your document. On the other hand, I pay taxes and am an employer and this, in my opinion allows me to state what I think of the current situation.


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Edited: Sat Apr 23, 05 at 09:35 PM by Cuchulainn
 
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player
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What seems to be shocking to me is how the immigration issue has become an issue in the UK elections..its not quite back to the 70's (of which I only know about from what people tell me and what I have read) but you can see it going down that road....The number of parties that are basing their poltics on the anti-immigration card is shocking...I was reading the paper today where in one region oa voter can vote for the BNP, NF, UKIP, Central England party...all of them far -right to as good far right parties.....Then you have the tory party anti-immigration policies....It doesnt bode well for the future IMHO...listening to the reasoning behind these anti-immigration card is almost just as bad...."We will be swamped in 10 years time e.t.c"..What does this remind me of ....Enoch Powell and his famous speech.....

OK so there does need to be something done about the immigration system in this country which is just a joke at the moment..but the way the some of the parties are wipping out the race card is shocking....



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mikebell
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In 2005 we are witnessing a completely different story; the educational system is in a real mess because of policy changes by governments that are only interested in saving money (what a mentality), health care is much worse when compared to 10 years ago. There is a severe lack of people with maths skill, enterpreneurs and others who will generate new wealth.

So you could say that we are going through real crises (plural) at the moment. In my opinion the old norms and values (and I don't necessarily mean religious) have been thrown to the four winds. The economy is the worst performing of EU (with the exception of Portugal).



This is quite disturbing. Since you came there as a foreigner, you probably have a clearer picture of what went wrong than a Dutch-born person. If you could guess or pinpoint one cause of all this, what would it be? Is that even possible to deduce? And you're quite right... people always attack immigrants first whenever there are unemployment issues. It's quite amazing to see how many people are emigrating out of a well developed, old, Western European democracy. I don't think we've ever seen something like this in the history of developed World. Before, people were forced into emigration because of famine, diseases and other socio-economic factors. This Dutch phenomenon is quite different. Instead of resorting to immigration, Dutch should at least try to stop the flood of emigration or there won't be any native Dutch left in Netherlands. By looking at these numbers from Canada, you could reasonably extrapolate that there are at least 250,000 Dutch leaving their country yearly. That's around 1.5% of the population! That's way too much and can do irreperable harm to the society since the majority of people who are leaving are not unskilled labor but professionals and well educated (this must be the case because both Canada and Australia, like US, require minimum number of 'points' for each applicant to have. Points are gained by the amount of skills and education level you posses). These people are being replaced by the uneducated, unskilled, third world labor.

Player, you're in the UK I presume. Is Blair going to be re-elected? I just read that BBC is helping anti-conservatives with heckling... heh.


Edited: Sun Apr 24, 05 at 05:11 AM by mikebell
 
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Anthis
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Having spent some time in Amsterdam, i was always interested about news from Holland.

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A major reason is that many people are pissed off with the government. If Pim Fortuyn had not been murdered he would have become PM and challenged the stagnant state of affairs in Dutch politics.


I dont think that the Dutch (who advertise themselves as a tolerant society, by the way) have such an extremme and sharp sense of humour to elect for PM a guy who, according to my info, used to be a homosexual with neo nazi beliefs and was murdered by a foreigner who used to sleep with him.
At the end of the day, who the hell was he? A one man show? A bubble? A fad? Are a couple of gunshots enough to stop a real movement? I dont think so, the first coffins just become the flags to lead the masses.


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People always have scapegoats when things are not going well. The current situation is no different. Of course immigrants are responsible for crime but there are also Dutch bad boys as well.


True, but imported criminality is not a Dutch phenomenon, its everywhere. This is not a reason
And i guess by criminality you dont mean just petty thieves (I still remember this "let op marokaanse zakkenrollers" in Amsterdam trams). But is there any reason why Holland attracts criminality? The Dutch tolerance maybe? Also, have the foreigners emmigrated to Holland yesterday? Last week? Last year perhaps? No i dont think so. As former colonial country, non Dutch people used to live there for decades. On the other hand, my country from a net exporter of labour has become a net importer of labour during the 90s with all the accompanying side effects, included criminality who raised both in quantitative and qualitative fashion. But none here thought to flee the country. On the contrary i believe such phenomena require dynamic and active responses and policies.
 
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Cuchulainn
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If Fortuyn had lived he would have become PM for sure, plain simple. That people would have been crazy to vote him in is a another story indeed. He had real grass roots support, even from business community.

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Cuchulainn
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> people who are leaving are not unskilled labor but professionals and well educated

Yes, that's what's happening. Of course, some farmers leave because framing in EU is pointless, really.

To take an example, I read an article yesterday in the Financial Dagblad. There are only 200 first year maths students each year (and 50% never reach the touch line). Salaries and funds are related to numbers of attending students. So, if you were a brilliant maths Prof, I think your next port of call would be the States, for example. Many ambitious people I know leave because of the bureucracy and red tape. It is estimated that 70% of the researchers who gor to USA never come back because there they get funds, inspiration and accreditation for their work.

30 years ago we had a great reputatiion in maths and many other fields.

There are more maths students at Warwick than the whole of the country. This is dramatic, but is only one example.

As Anthis said, there's crinminlaity everywhere. You make and resolve your own problems, no point blaming others.

> Dutch should at least try to stop the flood of emigration
Here's one answer: government doesn't seem to be bothered

P.S.
I still live here, but have had offers from abroad ...




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Edited: Sun Apr 24, 05 at 10:34 AM by Cuchulainn
 
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Dook
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I dont think that the Dutch (who advertise themselves as a tolerant society, by the way) have such an extremme and sharp sense of humour to elect for PM a guy who, according to my info, used to be a homosexual with neo nazi beliefs and was murdered by a foreigner who used to sleep with him.


He was indeed a homosexual, but was not shot by a foreigner who slept with him. Funny how these stories get into the world. He was murdered by a "nature freak", and he is believed to have said: "I am no racist, when I go to a dark room, some of my favourite sexual partners are marrocan men".

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To take an example, I read an article yesterday in the Financial Dagblad. There are only 200 first year maths students each year (and 50% never reach the touch line).
Quote



This is indeed a big problem. Because fees for studying at university become higher and higher (due to the extreme money-saving politics of the government (less and less is subsidized, that was mentioned earlier), and because when you do not succeed in finishing your Bachelor or Masters degree you have to pay back a loan granted by the governnent that would otherwise have been turned into a gift, a lot of young people decide to study something "easier" then math or econometrics, etc. They don't want to risk ending up with a big loan they have to redeem.

Edited: Sun Apr 24, 05 at 01:42 PM by Dook
 
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farmer
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Originally posted by: Dook
This is indeed a big problem. Because studying at university becomes more and more expensive (due to the extreme money-saving politics of the government, that was mentioned earlier)

Either studying at university is a profitable activity, or it isn't. All the government can do, is prevent whether it is, and up to what point it is, from being discovered. Causing people to take easy subjects is not likely to be the only distortion. People's whole life patterns are changed by the government.

But consider the market for dresses. A decision to save money by dress consumers - in other words, a decrease in the social importance attached to high fashion - would certainly not result in higher price tags in clothing-store windows. Dresses in general would be cheaper, for those who still wanted them.

Heck, people might even be able to get a job and buy their own dresses, or at least for their children!

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Anthis
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Dook, thanks for the correction. But in anyway this doesnt contradict my belief such persons with inconsistent attitude and unstable character, who have mastered the art of demagogy, are dangerous once they are in power and are given authority. Any PM of a country has the authority to make decisions about economy, the future of a country and can affect your everyday life routine both in short run as well as in long run. He also has the command over country's forces and weapons and represent the country in international institutions.
Since i dont think that there is a shortage of common sense in Holland, i can only guess that the Dutch would vote him only to have some fun, in the same way here a person who has never worked in his life and has never managed anything, not even a hot dog stand, has been voted recently as PM to run the country.
 
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Cuchulainn
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> Since i dont think that there is a shortage of common sense in Holland, i can only guess that the Dutch
> would vote him only to have some fun

Unfortunately, this assumption is wrong. People are frustrated with political system. Even my wife who has absolutely no interest in politics is now very vocal on this subject, that's saying a lot.

The press that Fortuyn got was inaccurate in many ways. He did represent a large section of 'oppressed' people and they saw him as someone who reacted to the establishment here. I know many poieple who feel in this way. So something is simmering.

There are deep underlying issues here that surface every now and again. Things have changed a lot since you were here.

I agree with Dook's comments. These days you can do all kinds of studies and if something is too diffcult yiu do something else.


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Cuchulainn
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> Either studying at university is a profitable activity, or it isn't.

Can you elaborate?

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I think Daniel's right about the failure to integrate Moslems into Western culture.
When I was at university, it was notable that whose parents came from Eastern Europe spoke perfectly "good" english. "bY "good" I mean that several had acquired quite powerful British regional accents.
The kids with parents from the Indian subcontinent had quite marked accents. Note we're talking here about peple who did well out of the education system, not the average from either set.

Schools had already started pandering to the false god of multiculturalism. "White" kids were expected to get their english up to speed PDQ, but asian kids had their cultures "respected", and for some bizarre reason this net caught afro-caribbean kids whose backgrounds typically were English speaking.

We see a scary % of people from places where the prevailing religon is Islam who can't speak English propelry after 2 or even three generations here.
Bangladeshi males have stupildy high rates of unemployment, in Britain, and the wonder is not that some get angry, but there is so little violence and crime, that is not a constant.

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farmer
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Originally posted by: Cuchulainn
****Either studying at university is a profitable activity, or it isn't.****

Can you elaborate?

When one guy says the government is spending too little, and another guy says the government is spending too much, they can't both be right. But the problem is there is no right answer, only different feedback mechanisms for arriving at different numbers. So when someone says "the government is too stingy," what he really means is that he would like to replace the mechanism which sets spending levels with a different mechanism. For example, taxpayers could keep their money, and spend it on their own children, or through a student loan program, or through charitable grants, with each system allocating the costs and benefits in different ways, and rewarding different types of decisions with survival of the decision maker.

This is like if someone says "You are eating too many french fries," what he really means, is that he would prefer that he decides how many french fries you eat, instead of you deciding for yourself. If you decide, then he is wrong, and if he gets to decide, then you are wrong.

If a ball bounces, then it is not wrong, it is just being a ball. Values are individual. If the government can spend $1 or $100 on education, and survive either way, then neither is wrong. But the point about profitability, is that you can keep making profits forever, nobody can take a loss forever. So if there is someone who benefits from a college education, then he can spend money on it, and it will self-perpetuate and last forever, and no one can ever tell him he is wrong.

If an owl can eat mice his whole life, then who will tell him what he is doing is immoral? Animals have instincts, but people's brains are designed to absorb morals after they are born. It is against this moral yardstick which individual action can be declared wrong, where it is being measurerd against the interest of the society upon whose survival the individual's survival depends. Governments have no morals, their only aim is survival. For most entities, the only yardstick is survival. When you shift whose survival is to be measured from the government to the individual, or from one individual to another, the right answer changes.

So you need to transfer the education-spending right-sizing decision to the entity that enjoys the cost and benefit. Then you will discover if it is profitable, or if can only survive by the costs being spread out and dispersed and lumped in with other things. And then it will rise to the point where it is no longer profitable. And nobody will go to college who shouldn't, or waste someone else's money.

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Cuchulainn
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Farmer
Thank you for your somewhat amoral view of education. It feels like a law of physics, like gravity or a law of Newton.

BTW this thread originally started with the system in the Netherlands. Have you ideas on this specific issues?

QUESTION IS: The Dutch government is spending less and less on education, especially in the critical sciences.

Maybe a new thread on "How to survive in Government"? OK? Then you could use this as an outlet. Then we can all join in, DCFC, Matthew ... and the whole bunch.


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Edited: Sun Apr 24, 05 at 07:51 PM by Cuchulainn
 
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Cuchulainn
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> I think Daniel's right about the failure to integrate Moslems into Western culture.

Yes. With the Bangladeshi and Indian communities in UK, I see that many of them have shops, businesses etc. and have thus a vested interest in the welfare of the country (just take a stroll down Brick Lane and you see what I mean). However, where things went wrong with Moslems is that they landed in menial jobs and basically got into a rut. There are many well-educated Moroccans (and Berbers!) in Holland. Some are deciding to go back to Morocco.
You don't cause riots and looting if you have a shop or prospects.

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DominicConnor
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I think there is something from both Cuchulainn and Farmer's posts.

In order to survive a culture needs to educate the next generation. It's all very well to say more is better, but given a finite set of native talent, this is a bound.

The obvious dilemma is in sciences. Rapidly growing counties like India both invest in scientific education, and greatly reward success in it. We note that the high growth phases of Britain and America had this pattern.
But it has been broken a long time.
A science degree does not impart much more lifetime earnings than some daffy subject like literature or foreign languages, indeed there seems to be something of a negative correlation between being very good at science and earnings.
An IT person in India can earn 10-20 times the wage of unskilled people, and surprise, surprise their best and brightests are piling in.

Our economy is set up such that if you're the bloke who invented the LED, or the laser you won't get rich, but your firm often will.

Which direction should I push DCFC 2.0 and 2.1 in to succeed in the world of 2020-2070 ?



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Cuchulainn
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> Which direction should I push DCFC 2.0 and 2.1 in to succeed in the world of 2020-2070 ?

Same with Cuchulainn 2! Soon he will be going to school (14 years) where the teachers have no academic background and do not understand math.
Also, the EU has to get out of its laid-back approach, we are being beaten on all fronts by the new nations, and not just India but former Eastern block.



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farmer
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Originally posted by: Cuchulainn
BTW this thread originally started with the system in the Netherlands. Have you ideas on this specific issues?

Yeah, instead of running, sell your culture. Be missionaries. Tell these brown people how great Netherlands culture is, and tell them it is because of Netherlands culture that the Netherlands is a place they wanted to move to, and that it is no coincidence that the place where people with your culture lived, is no place you wanted to stay.

I get the idea that the habits of immigrants are viewed in a tragic, defeatist way. Maybe it is this multiculturalism, where no one has the confidence to say "These people live terribly, they need to get a clue." If you were at a party, and people were scratching each other or doing something gross, would you speak up and say "This is wrong?" Or would you slink away? This is your party.

But rather than multiculturalism, I think it is moral relativism. I think it is just a lot of people who know what they are doing is wrong somehow, or they are ashamed of it. And so nobody wants to point the finger at the other guy, for fear of being exposed himself. So it all starts with vanity. You've invited them into your borders, but you haven't invited them into your house.

Because you're not proud, and you're not excited about yourselves. Look at black hip-hop artists in the US. They're excited about their lifestyle, and it's infectious. Black people don't feel so superior, they're happy to have white kids trying to act black. Totally un-selfconscious. Sell some aryan nationalist t-shirts to these brown kids.

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Originally posted by: Anthis
this doesnt contradict my belief such persons with inconsistent attitude and unstable character, who have mastered the art of demagogy, are dangerous once they are in power and are given authority. Any PM of a country has the authority to make decisions about economy, the future of a country and can affect your everyday life routine both in short run as well as in long run. He also has the command over country's forces and weapons and represent the country in international institutions. Since i dont think that there is a shortage of common sense in Holland, i can only guess that the Dutch would vote him only to have some fun, in the same way here a person who has never worked in his life and has never managed anything, not even a hot dog stand, has been voted recently as PM to run the country.

And this from the guy who once told me I had "lived too long in an individualist society." It sounds like Anthis wants no part in the great collective, and would rather distance himself from it, or live out of the reach of its silly fads and experiments.

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Originally posted by: DCFC
I think Daniel's right about the failure to integrate Moslems into Western culture.

Here's a new book analyzing the failure to integrate US blacks into Northern culture, and instead celebrating their redneck culture. Liberal elites want no part of their culture but, as with public shools, think it is good for other people's children. White teenagers like me, on the other hand, feel it suits us just fine:-)



And while we're at it, here is an excerpt from a transcript of the author alluding to Lakoff's "framing:"

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I guess the best definition I?ve heard is from Hayek. He says it's a second-hand dealer in ideas. But the vast majority of intellectuals don?t really originate any ideas, but they peddle ideas that other people have originated.

And that gives them a great deal of freedom, because ideas are so malleable. Words are so malleable. Reality is not malleable.

And so, they can believe in all sorts of things which have no realistic possibility, and which are fatal time and again in history. But because they know how to rephrase it and repackage it, they can just keep right on going.

So liberals wake up every morning asking themselves, "How can we fool these stupid voters today?"

-------------------------
Who is Barrick YUbamma??

Edited: Sun Apr 24, 05 at 08:54 PM by farmer
 
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Anthis
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And this from the guy who once told me I had "lived too long in an individualist society." It sounds like Anthis wants no part in the great collective, and would rather distance himself from it, or live out of the reach of its silly fads and experiments.


Probably i have told you so in the past albeit memory doesnt help to say definitely yes or no. I do believe that american society promotes individualism. On the other i cant find any relationship this may have with the current discussion. Please enlighten us. If you ar trying to divert this discussion to a collectivism vs individualism debate, then my thesis is "balance"
 
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